Rhetoric

"When a clever man has an honest case to make, it is no great task for him to speak well. You posess a fluent tongue, as if you were a man of sense, but your words lack all judgement. The good speaker whose influence rests on self-assurance proves to be a bad citizen; for he lacks intelligence."

-Teiresias (The Bacchae; page 134, line 267)

In this quote, Teiresias is commenting on Pentheus' rhetoric. Teiresias admits that Pentheus speaks with confidence, his message, however, is transparent, his words are meaningless. As a wise man, Teiresias can tell when a man has substance to support his superior rhetoric and when he is just blowing smoke.

Rhetoric is an extremely powerful persuasive tool. President Obama, for example, was a popular candidate during the election less because of any extraordinary political ideas, but more because of his excellent speaking ability. Even if Obama didn't have any plans to back up his speeches, he wowed the American public into electing him president.

Alexander The Lion

I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion. (Alexander the Great)

Alexander is undoubtedly speaking of himself as the lion leader. He calls his men sheep because none of them can even compare to his stature of courage, leadership, tactical genius, and his prophetic god status. In reference to his enemies, I believe that he never faced one who was a lion leading sheep like him besides perhaps Darius who mutilated Alexander's men with scythed chariots. However, Alexander was able to overcome that with decisive tactics and was able to turn Darius the lion into Darius the sheep when he relentlessly pursued him after the battle had been won.

Lysistrata

"All right. We're going to have to give up - the prick. Why are you turning away from me? Where are you going? Why are you all pursing your lips and shaking your heads? What means your altered color and tearful droppings? Will you do it or not? What are you waiting for?"

- Loeb Classical Library Reader, Lysistrata, Page 63

They seem so outraged that they would have to give up sex to make their husbands and lovers halt their wars but they also seem to be aware of the power they hold over their men. Women in history are portrayed as quiet and demure and yet classical women seem to be far more brash and confident in themselves and their power over society and their men. Makes you wonder if we've come full circle with women, going from powerful and somewhat close to equal to not at all to somewhat close to equal again. Taboo topics have changed over the centuries as well but again, sex is no longer taboo. These women seem very open about their sexuality. Also...it's kind of hilarious...

The Bacchae

"No blood was drawn by their pointed spears, whether they used bronze or iron, but the Bacchants, hurling their wands from their hands, inflicted wounds and made those villagers turn and run - women routing men - surely the work of some god."

- The Bacchae, Page 147

Is it really so outrageous to believe a woman would fight a man? Apparently so. The Bacchants are insane, wild and 'free', and they fight and chase the villagers in their madness. They injure without piercing the skin and turn the tide of the heirarchy. No longer are men above women, they now cower. Is this what Dionysus planned? For a complete role reversal? It would appear that way as he also dresses Pentheus as a women. He is changing the entire system around.

The Lovely Ladies of Greece

pp 27-65 in the LOEB Classical Library Reader (Antigone, Medea, and Lysistrata)
~Sophocles, Euripides, and Aristophanes

Women in classical drama are often shown breaking the traditional conventions of women. A classical woman is seen as being sexually passionate. This can be most clearly seen in Lysistrata, when the women are willing to do anything other than give up “the prick” to end Athens’s war with Sparta. They are also seen as being irrational, which one can see in Medea, where Medea wants to kill her husband’s new bride and their children. They are seen as being religiously fervent, which is excellently portrayed in the Bacchae when all of the women of the city leave to pray to Dionysus (even though they were under a spell). Women were meant to be subservient to men which is very clearly not seen in all of the plays. Antigone goes against the will of her king, Medea goes against the will of her husband, the women of Greece go against their husbands in Lysistrata, and the women of Thebes go against the will of their husbands and their king in the Bacchae. They were meant to be kept inside and away from all excitement and all men other than her husband. This rule is broken in all of the aforementioned plays. The characters of these plays are rarely appreciated for their good qualities, and are only cursed for the sole reason that what they think is right is not what the men think is right.

I do not feel that the playwrights are sympathetic toward or respectful of their female characters at all. They make them very stereotypical basic females with no complexity of emotion or action. Their worlds revolve around the men and children in their lives no matter what else the plot may contain. I think that the playwrights would have maintained the stereotypes so as not to upset the audiences, who would have been angered by such a drastic change of the role of women. The only play that even comes close to breaking the stereotype of women is Antigone, because it makes Antigone appear to be wise and logical, and it makes the king appear ignorant and dependant on his crown.

Dignity

"I will not steal my victory"
- Alexander the Great

That is a great indication of character of Alexander the Great, that he does not consider an unfair fight victory, and he is not in it just for the land.
They had the chance to ambush the Persians the night before the Battle of Gaugamela, but his dignity would not let it happen. It shows he has respect for his opponents, and wants to be a worthy one himself. He prides himself on being able to win without having any sort of advantage.
Really makes you feel he is a great man.

We Lose Either Way

"Stronger than lover's love is lover's hate. Incurable, in each, the wounds they make." - Euripides

The Vitruvian Man

"I am indebted to my father for living, but to my teacher for living well."
"I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion."
"I had rather excel others in the knowledge of what is excellent, than in the extent of my power and dominion."
~Alexander The Great

These quotes, to me, prove the incredible genius of Alexander The Great. They also prove that he was given an impeccable education by Aristotle in every possible subject matter. He is smart, ambitous, modest, clever, cunning, eloquent, charismatic, and logical. In other words, Aristotle created the perfect leader, instilled with the values and morals of Greece and taught to uphold them at all costs.

Medea: The Classic Greek Woman

"I shall kill my children...When i have confounded the whole house of Jason, I shall flee the land..."
~Medea

I find the entire idea of Medea's plan to be incredibly stereotypical to the point of sexism.This woman's entire life revolved around her husband Jason. She is willing to kill her own children, and ruin her life just to ruin the house of Jason, or in other words to get back at her husband. Revenge is one thing, but ruining your life merely because your husband has left you is a ridiculous idea. Even though, in a way, the story of Medea does break stereotypes (having her go off by herself, and plot to ruin her husband), it cements the idea that a woman has no life without a man to love and take care of.

A Recipe for Happiness

"The end of tongues uncurbed and lawless foolishness is unhappiness; but the life of quiet contentment and good sense survives the buffeting of the sea and keeps homes together; for though they dwell far off in the sky, yet the heavenly ones observe the deeds of men."

-Antistrophe, The Bacchae

Throughout The Bacchae, we see Pentheus acting in a rash and irrational manner. Speaking vehemently about things he didn't understand, refusing to believe the words of those wiser than him, and quickly jumping to conclusions without solid evidence, Pentheus is an example of a man whose "uncurbed tongue" and "lawless foolishness" resulted in his unhappiness and demise. Had Pentheus and his family exercised good sense, not only could he have been spared from his unfortunate fate, but the royal house could have avoided being disbanded, its members thrown into exile.

In my AP English class, we are reading King Lear by Shakespeare. I have noticed many parallels to The Bacchae on the theme of rashness vs reason. Lear, elderly and quick-tempered, exiles his most loyal and beloved daughter, Cordelia, when her description of the love she has for him fails to please him. Refusing to accept her explanation or listen to the common sense of his advisors, Lear banishes Cordelia and splits his kingdom between his two remaining daughters, the conniving Regan and Goneril. The decision to ignore reason and act rashly results in Lear's great suffering and abandonment at the hands of his daughters.

These two works of literature, written almost a thousand years apart, both reflect the same wisdom. Refuse reason and deny wisdom, they say, and suffer the consequences.

Ambition = madness

The Bacchae - Euripides
"To be clever is not to be wise, and thoughts that go beyond mortal limits spell a short life. In view of this who would pursue great ambitions rather than accept his present lot? These are the ways of madmen, in my verdict, whose wits have left them." - Antistrophe

This is saying that people who push themselves are mad; in other words, Pentheus, who is pushing himself to total ignorant stubbornness just to exert his power, is mad, because he is committing blasphemy. If he just accepted the trend of people worshipping Dionysus, he would have learned the beauty of his rites, and it would have been a merry time for all. To be easygoing is to be stress-free is to be wise, perhaps, in the Bacchic view.

The monster is chilling

"If I cannot satisfy one, I will indulge the other."

Not sure whether or not it was in the book AND the movie, but when seeing it in the movie, it sent chills down my spine. It was the ultimatum given to Frankenstein by the monster, about his two desires: companionship or revenge.
Somehow I think Frankenstein should have just sucked it up and made the female monster. I mean really? Did he not see the pattern of death in his loved ones already?
The monster made it pretty clear what was going to happen - at least in the movie. Frankenstein is fully responsible for all the pain that happened to him, and yet he remained silent and did not reach out for much help at all. DESPICABLE HUBRIS IF I EVER DID SEE IT.

Order and Reason = Fear and Folly?

"Take to heart what I say, Pentheus: don't be too sure that force is what controls human affairs; and if you have a thought and your thought is unhealthy, do not think your folly is wisdom. Receive the god into your land, pour libations, worship Bacchus and garland your head! It is not for Dionysus to force women to show chastity in the affairs of love; this lies in their own nature."

-Teiresias, 309-317, The Bacchae


Pentheus's traditions of order and reason have begun to lead to the destruction of his own wisdom. Preachings of Dionysus's religion make its worshippers disobey the usual, established practices of mankind and thus cause a disturbance in Pentheus's so-called "order" which he has established as the King of Thebes. Pentheus wants to use force to reinstate the city he controls, but Teiresias is wiser when he says that Pentheus should join Bacchus and worship Dionysus, furthermore that Dionysus is not responsible for how women act and they do so as they please. Therefore, Pentheus should not be responsible for forcibly controlling how his people act as well. It is now up to Pentheus to respect the wiser elder and take his advice.

What Would We Do Without A Chorus?

"Many are the forms taken by the plans of the gods and many are the things they accomplish beyond men's hopes. What men expect does not happen; for the unexpected heaven finds a way. And so it has turned out here today."
~ The Chorus in The Bacchae


The chorus in greek theatre serves merely to drill the painfully obvious morals of the stories deeper into the audiences brains. I personally find the chorus of the Bacchae to be incredibly pointless. In many stories they serve a useful purpose, such as showing how an ideal audience might react to the play, but in the Bacchae i find that they merely echo the abundantly clear morals.

Plato's View of our Society

Plato's myth of the cave explains exactly what our society does in the world today. We all struggle to see reality because we are trapped. What we know and see isn't always reality. Everyone's view of something real can be different depending on what they've seen or done their entire life. Our souls are prisoners inside our bodies...